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Wrestling, Judo, and Jiu Jitsu: An In Depth Look

SuperNoob2011-12-08 01:15:37 +0000 #1
I'm kind of ignorant to the differences of the submission and take-down games within MMA. I often read things like "He has great Jiu Jitsu, but his wrestling is bad," or "His takedowns are amazing, but he doesn't have great wrestling." I know that a lot of ya'll understand all of this much better than I do, so I would like to be enlightened.

This is where I am on the subject (random thoughts):

Isn't a big part of JJ submissions? If so, wouldn't that involve taking your opposition down? Does it even matter if Matt Hughes takes you down if you can submit the Country Breakfast out of him?

If you are amazing at throws and sweeps as a Judo practitioner, are you more adept at avoiding take downs from wrestlers and JJ practitioners? Wouldn't you want to engage with a JJ guy standing, so that you could ragdoll him to the mat?

If your main strength is wrestling, do you have to just GnP or hold down your opposition? Would you rather not want to tangle on the ground with a JJ guy knowing what he could do, or is there a certain strategy you must employ against him while on the ground?

I'm pretty sure it isn't Rock Paper Scissors (or is it?), but I just am looking for a better understanding of where the different styles meld and stand alone. Does one naturally counter the other or is it not that simple?

Thanks for any insights.


Cbear2011-12-08 01:24:26 +0000 #2
Rasslin hold all teh belt!
tantryl2011-12-08 01:36:07 +0000 #3
Quote:

Originally Posted by SuperNoob

Isn't a big part of JJ submissions? If so, wouldn't that involve taking your opposition down?

BJJ competition doesn't allow striking. It's a grapple only situation. So shooting (diving at leg/s and dumping people down) isn't a part of it. During sparring you'd often start in a full guard position. There's some judo/aikido/greco-esque trips and throws to get position in actual matches, but these are rarely the focus of training. There's also pulling guard, which was very effective for Royce Gracie before people figured out BJJ was dangerous, but stops being as useful because...

Quote:

Originally Posted by SuperNoob

Does it even matter if Matt Hughes takes you down if you can submit the Country Breakfast out of him?

... it's a lot easier to train sub defense than it is to train subs. Most strong wrestling guys are now trained to work the guard, half guard, get full mount and avoid the major dangers off the back like triangles, arm bars and sweeps. Matt Hughes wasn't a great example for your question since he actually was one of the few wrestlers who really trained subs hard himself early on. But I get your point.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SuperNoob

If you are amazing at throws and sweeps as a Judo practitioner, are you more adept at avoiding take downs from wrestlers and JJ practitioners?

Yes and no. Judo doesn't really train for people shooting at your legs, but Judo guys doing MMA do. But you are going to have good balance. A strong Judo guy isn't likely to get taken down by a BJJ guy because as mentioned earlier, BJJ guys rarely have good take downs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SuperNoob

Wouldn't you want to engage with a JJ guy standing, so that you could ragdoll him to the mat?

Once your throw is done, a move which rarely stuns an opponent in MMA, you're in the BJJ guys world. While Judo has some strong grappling techniques, BJJ is pretty much ALL grappling techniques. If you're a Judo guy incredibly confident in your ability to grapple and scramble, you might go this route. But Judo trains striking standing far more than BJJ, so your advantage would probably be in keeping it standing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SuperNoob

If your main strength is wrestling, do you have to just GnP or hold down your opposition? Would you rather not want to tangle on the ground with a JJ guy knowing what he could do, or is there a certain strategy you must employ against him while on the ground?

If you've got a decent jab and KO power and you don't think your sub defense (which as mentioned earlier, is relatively much easier to train than a good sub offense) is going to hold up, then you'd keep it standing. But a good wrestler pretty much just has to watch out for subs - don't leave your arm in (unless you want them to grab at it so you have a chance to improve position), angle your body right if your head gets latched on to, avoid the sweep, avoid the triangle and you're probably going to be fine.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SuperNoob

I'm pretty sure it isn't Rock Paper Scissors (or is it?), but I just am looking for a better understanding of where the different styles meld and stand alone. Does one naturally counter the other or is it not that simple?

It is kind of a game of Rock Paper Scissors, but there are different sizes of each and every now and then a piece of paper will destroy a pair of scissors by paper cutting it to death.
SuperNoob2011-12-08 01:40:22 +0000 #4
Quote:

Originally Posted by tantryl

BJJ competition doesn't allow striking. It's a grapple only situation. So shooting (diving at leg/s and dumping people down) isn't a part of it. During sparring you'd often start in a full guard position. There's some judo/aikido/greco-esque trips and throws to get position in actual matches, but these are rarely the focus of training. There's also pulling guard, which was very effective for Royce Gracie before people figured out BJJ was dangerous, but stops being as useful because...

Cool, but isn't BJJ different from JJ? I'm wondering more about traditional JJ than BJJ.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TANTRYL

Matt Hughes wasn't a great example for your question since he actually was one of the few wrestlers who really trained subs hard himself early on. But I get your point.

I understood he wasn't a good example going in, but anytime I can use the term Country Breakfast I will go for it :lol

Quote:

Originally Posted by tantryl

Yes and no. Judo doesn't really train for people shooting at your legs, but Judo guys doing MMA do. But you are going to have good balance. A strong Judo guy isn't likely to get taken down by a BJJ guy because as mentioned earlier, BJJ guys rarely have good take downs.

...

Once your throw is done, a move which rarely stuns an opponent in MMA, you're in the BJJ guys world. While Judo has some strong grappling techniques, BJJ is pretty much ALL grappling techniques. If you're a Judo guy incredibly confident in your ability to grapple and scramble, you might go this route. But Judo trains striking standing far more than BJJ, so your advantage would probably be in keeping it standing.

Yeah, but I'm more concerned with JJ instead of BJJ. Also, as a sub-question, if your world revolved around submissions then why are you awful at take downs? Also, wrestling=grappling or not?

Quote:

Originally Posted by TANTRYL

If you've got a decent jab and KO power and you don't think your sub defense (which as mentioned earlier, is relatively much easier to train than a good sub offense) is going to hold up, then you'd keep it standing. But a good wrestler pretty much just has to watch out for subs - don't leave your arm in (unless you want them to grab at it so you have a chance to improve position), angle your body right if your head gets latched on to, avoid the sweep, avoid the triangle and you're probably going to be fine.

But traditionally, a wrestler would rely on pinning his opponent down and/or beating him to death?

I suppose I need to go watch some fights where purists fight each other. Thanks for the reply, but it hasn't really answered what I'm looking to get at. I think I'm not posing the right question, or I don't know how to formulate it correctly.

Rasslin do hold all teh belt, though, but it is because of the cage and rules ):
tantryl2011-12-08 02:43:00 +0000 #5
I assumed BJJ since you rarely see straight up Japanese JJ in UFC/Strikeforce.
BulldogWrestler2011-12-08 02:47:52 +0000 #6
I could probably type for years on this subject since its pretty much the one subject that I know more about than anything else MMA related.

The way I view things:

Grappling is a broad term that encompasses any of those styles. They all fall under the "grappling" umbrella.

Traditional Japanese JJ isn't really taught anymore as a "stand alone style". Mainly, the JJJ schools you see (at least here stateside) are all "protect me from getting my purse stolen" type schools that are not designed or intended to be trainers for MMA. JJJ (in the states, again - assume that unless I say otherwise) mainly started as an offshoot from people who wanted to teach jujitsu instead of Judo (mainly because there were so many competition Judo clubs). Also, the ground newaza aspect of Judo comes into play later on - and I'm assuming that people wanted to get that aspect in earlier so they form "JJJ" schools. I don't know, just my thought. The Judo *I* learned and trained under has always infused both aspects. Japanese Jijitsu (which has A LOT of the same moves and same holds and submissions as BJJ and is VERY parallel to it) was just our "ground work" and was always considered a part of the Judo curriculum (in fact, the full name for it was "Judo and Jujitsu Kai"). Now, in MMA - there just aren't enough people who use Judo to the point where their ground games are polished. In Japan, there are camps that teach JJJ strictly for MMA (and it falls in much the same sense as BJJ over there - although their fighters aren't as successful). So, to answer your question - JJJ in the strictest sense of the term incorporates takedowns because it's the same thing as Judo. It's all a part of Judo. However, in the US - it's been segregated from the Judo part for whatever reason and is no mainly associated with self defense type techniques (more of an Aikido type system) than it is a "true grappling system".

AS for being good at Judo = being good at takedown defense - that's not always true. It depends on the individual. There are A LOT of sport Judo guys who can't defend a takedown for ****. They're strictly offensive and - outside of the world of Judo - are VERY susceptible at being taken down. Once on the mat - it all depends on the fighter. A strictly "sport Judo" fighter will probably have little to no submission training, so that's not a place they would want to be against a seasoned submissions guy.

As for the wrestling question - it depends on the fighter. Some of them will ground and pound, some of them will just try and maintain top posistion. It all depends. A lot of wrestlers use their training cardio as a strength. The vast majority of wrestlers are cardio machines - which allows them to be explosive and wear down their opponents. It's very difficult to get a submission when you're exhausted. That's the tact most wrestlers seem to take in MMA.

It's not rock, paper, scissors at all. One style doesn't naturally counter the other style.

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