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beyond duality

justwannabe2010-07-04 15:32:08 +0000 #1
so in yoga one of the goals, for some people, is to get beyond duality. To get to a place where we are not controlled by our emotions I guess. Where we do not react to certain things but rather act upon what is needed. So if we are beyond duality are we beyond love and hate? are we beyond feeling excited or being board? If I take some of the things I have studied word for word it makes me wonder where emotions come in. So if nothing is good, nothing is bad, and it "just is" Then what is "just is" I know this may not be worded in the way I mean it internally, maybe some of you get what I am trying to ask.

thanks

neil
Pandara2010-07-04 15:40:12 +0000 #2
Hi Neil,

This reminds me of the words of the Christ, be in the world not of the world. We cannot escape duality, you will always experience duality as this is a prerequisite for incarnation to this planet. So you will always experience duality in everything you do or say etc. So what is the difference between the person who realise this en move beyond it and the person who doesn't? For me it is about realising the the Ultimate Truth, that is, yes we have emotions and we acknowledge them, but at the same time we realise we are not our emotions. Our emotions is just an expression of the physical being, but that our Higher Self (our Spiritual counterpart) is more than just our emotions. So you do not live in denail of this duality or your emotions, but acknowledge them, but don't react to them.

Sure I experience also sadness, depression sometimes etc. Difference is how do I react to it, do I become my sadness and dwell in and on it for days, or do I acknowledge my sadness, allow it to happen and then return to my Centre where sadness has no reality and move on? To answer your question, no as long as we reincarnate on this planet we will never be beyond duality, however, it is our attitude towards this duality which will determine our experience of its influence. Even the great master have to cope with this duality. Soembody once posed this question here, so is the bubble really different from the sea?

To just be - a great mystery, because where is that place I once asked my teacher, Sri Durga. Her answer: You are already in it, she said. I took me a while to realise the Truth behind it.

Hope I understood your questions correctly and that my answer may add to your understanding.
Hubert2010-07-04 15:50:08 +0000 #3
Just think of the trees: they let the birds prech and fly, with no intention to call them when they come and no longing for their return when they fly away. If people's hearts can be like the trees, they will not be off the Way.

zen quote (Langya)

Everything just good or bad because we relate to them with acceptance or rejection. Accept anger, jealousy, hate, reject infatuation, attraction, desire. This is equanimity. This way you pass the human stage and become something more. Some say this is inhuman, and they are right. But think of this. We do this every day to everybody else on this planet. We don't really care if they're happy or sad, hungry or well fed. We care about ourselves and maybe a few others, but always to a less extent. See yourself as someone else, and you will feel pity for your longings, and will be amused by your anger.
Hubert2010-07-04 16:24:43 +0000 #4
Because the 30 minutes to edit my post just expired ... here it continues:

If you get obsessed or ruled by a certain emotion, don't fight it. It will make it stronger. It is not your enemy. It is your friend. Be it hate or anger, jealousy, or envy, it is your friend. Use it well. It is pshycic energy, flowing from one place to another. Go with the flow. Make it the object of your focus. Use it to practice concentration. Anger transforms in physical or pshycic energy. Bodily strenght (adrenalin), will and determination. Lust transforms into devotion, and worship. Envy, jealousy into hurt and helplessness. This will teach you how to surrender, and cry. I call this driving myself by the wheel of my heart. See these emotions as the petals of the heart chakra. (seek axplanation in Yogatattwa Upanishad)

Let it turn, until you find yourself in the middle. Feel them, use them, release them.

Practice of satya is very helpful. When you are in trouble, talk to the people who trouble you. Be open, tell them: you hurt me, I am angry at you, I envy you, you make me jealous. People don't usually do this, as the ego is afraid of pain, and of humiliation. But if you are humble, you will not be hurt, and they will be disarmed by your sincerity.

This goes for love also. If you love, say it. Than it might be returned or not. In both cases you win. In fact, it is better to be refused, but one should also experience when it is accepted, just to know that it is not everything.
justwannabe2010-07-04 16:25:41 +0000 #5
thanks hubert and pandara for your replies. You see, I am a very detached person, watching someone in pain or sufffering does not really bother me. an example, I had a dream the other week, I saw two people fighting and they fell off a small ledge, about five or so feet. I walked over to see them and they were motionless, I just stood there feeling nothing, just observing. Now the weird part is that I am detached from others physical or mental pain but yet I have always been one who likes to talk with people who are in that state and try to give words of encouragement and comfort. I am always aware of how I treat others, I do not like to cause anyone harm or pain in any way, I am very conscious of that. In general I just feel like I dont care about much but I dont take that out on other people very often, I just keep it to myself. I dont know how to explain all this.

pandara you said,

"allow it to happen and then return to my Centre where sadness has no reality and move on"

so in this center sadness has no reality, so what about happiness, joy? do they have no reality either. In my life it is weired because I feel a lot of things opening and moving in the right direction but it also feels like another part of me is going the other way. I am now realizing I am the master/creator of my own destiny but what will I create when I dont really care about any "earthly" pleasures? I also feel like I have gained a lot of knowledge but I have less of an opinion on things now. What is right and wrong, how can I judge that.

Just rambling

neil
Pandara2010-07-04 17:38:53 +0000 #6
Hi Neil,

No, neither joy nor happiness and for that matter any earthly emotion has any reality in your Centre. The only reality there is Bliss or Ananda. Can we know this Blissful state, not really, but we have the promise and experiences of the Great Masters who hava described this state and who as gurus will lead the seeker there if the seeker is ready to experience this state. As swami Venkatesananda once said man is doomed to perfection. So, eventually everyone will experience this state, depending on your own soul evolution. However, this doesn't mean that we should not play our part on the stage of life, in fact because we have this inner knowledge we should strive to play it better and for me better is to focus my intentions and energies on that which we describe as being positive on this earth. See the words of Swami Sivanada at the bottom of my signature.

About judging, opnions and criticisms: I hear what you say, I myself experience a sate where I am more and more detached from what people around me say or think or express, sometimes i would listen to the conversations of my friends and I would think, can't I just go and sit and be on my own, this is so boring to listen to all this, so the old and same things over and over, been there no need for it. Anyway my strong social graces do not always allow me to do this, so I sit and pretend to look interested. But I try to avoid it more and more.

I hope I am still on the point, feel a bit off the point now. Just my observations and with this I might be true for me but not for you, take what you need leave the rest.
Hubert2010-07-04 18:26:18 +0000 #7
Neil, your mind thinks you are detached, but you really are not. This is a trick. Believe me, all the attachments are there in the subconscious. They retreated there to regroup ...

My mother after reading one Anthony De Mello book, said, she realized she is a Master, an enlightened soul.

While she has her merits, she is far from that, believe me. She is just as deeply entranched in fears, likes and dislikes, aversions and desires as we all are. She has eating disorders, she is in a very bad physical shape, overweight, heart conditition, extracted gallbladder, so ... she is delusional. (Not that Masters cannot be ill ... but these are results of lack of awarness on her part, and while I love her, and do not judge her, I am sorry for her, I try to help her as I can, mainly talking about things important to her)

You just think you are unattached. You are pretty much attached to yourself, your so called unattachment, your mental freedom, your daily pleasures, while you do not care about others as your mind thinks it is not your responsability, their karma, you name it. I know this feeling. I suffer from it, also.

This is an important step, where you unlearn the social behavioural conditioning. You have to go further.

I am lucky as I am faced daily with an obsession, a vasana. This makes all the other attachments to retreat, to lose power. But they are there, and when my vitality, my awarness drops, they pop up immediately. Also, this major one, becomes an almost unstoppable urge.

So my daily care is to: sleep well, no matter what, eat well (right and appropriate to my physical condition), work well so I can maintain this on a long term, and just whitstand the punishment of daily life in Kali Yuga. If I do this, life is bearable, and eventually a very slow but steady development makes itself palpable.

I also practice unattachment to yoga practice. Everey day I do a bit of healing and restoring practices, in the late afternoon. I read spiritual literature. I visit this forum to recharge my Shradda. No scehdules, no should be dones. No duty towards spirituality. Just devotion and hope, and respect.

Do the same.
justwannabe2010-07-04 16:33:14 +0000 #8
thanks for your replies.

maybe in the center there are the things that are beyond duality. I personally believe there are things that have no opposite so they become beyond duality.

example,

existence has no opposite. We can say the oppsite is non existence but you can show me existence or list an example of existence but you cannot show or tell me of a place where nothing exists.

Miracle,

since the very fact of existence is a miracle then everything that exists is a miracle. A nuclear bomb may not be seen as a miracle but the fact of existence enable creation, then everything, good or bad, is a miracle. Of course I think bombs are a negative miracle and not a positive one.

Love

can you tell me the opposite of love? some would say hate. But hate stems from love

Nuclear bombs are made out of love because if you trace the need to control back to its root cause you will find it is rooted in love. people fear because they love. If they did not love then they would have nothing to fear. If people did not lvoe then why would people be depressed and sad?

I personally believe that there is an existence that is beyond duality. When you realize life is a miracle, life is love, then maybe we can just choose to live in the miracle and be happy we are alive. do we have to get to a place where people like jesus or budha got? maybe we can if we pay attention to what they are saying and what they meant when they said it.

buhda said to Govinda after buhda came to realization "Govinda when you are always seeking you will mist the things along the way" that is not exact quote but it is pretty close to what was written in sidhartha

what did jesus say

"you can do all the works in the world but have not love and it profits you nothing"

so if love has no opposite and is beyond duality, if we live in a state of love then we may be beyond duality

so was life meant to be bearable, gotten through? or enjoyed to the fullest in love and happiness? maybe these emotions are at our center, maybe the words I am typing right now are coming from my center

patanjali said negative emotions can be stopped by thinking of positive things.

maybe the whole illusion is that we look to people like jesus, budha, gandi, or gurus as someone or something greater then ourselves and therefore believe that what they have or had found is only attainable for them.

Jesus said himself, according to the scripture I read

"these things I do ye shall do also and greater then these"

If we all truly are one and come from one source then nothing is greater or less

just thoughts

seeker
Prascina2010-07-04 18:11:38 +0000 #9
It was in 2006!I was with my teacher,travelling in one of the busiest trains in India,we came across a group of people from an organisation called sahaja marg.They started the practice of concentration in the train itself and after a brief time they started to talk to us about meditation.... in a snobbish way.I was so irritated and wanted to give them a piece of my mind, then I noticed that my teacher was having the most beautiful smile on her face as she was silently nodding with great attention to what their instructor was saying.It was for almost 4 hours of this and we were nearing the place where we had to getdown.Then I heard her telling them.." It's wonderful you are practicing meditation trying to stop the thoughts.. remember even to think about stopping thoughts is a thought itself..go beyond it..rest in the Inner peace.. it is there.." As we reached the station I saw that the instructor was bowing down to her in all respect with tears brimming in his eyes.I was surprised.It was a glimpse of the state in which she resided beyond ego and duality,in jivanmukta.... appearing as normal to any one of us.
Nichole2010-07-04 17:19:48 +0000 #10
Quote:

Originally Posted by Prascina



It was in 2006!I was with my teacher,travelling in one of the busiest trains in India,we came across a group of people from an organisation called sahaja marg.They started the practice of concentration in the train itself and after a brief time they started to talk to us about meditation.... in a snobbish way.I was so irritated and wanted to give them a piece of my mind, then I noticed that my teacher was having the most beautiful smile on her face as she was silently nodding with great attention to what their instructor was saying.It was for almost 4 hours of this and we were nearing the place where we had to getdown.Then I heard her telling them.." It's wonderful you are practicing meditation trying to stop the thoughts.. remember even to think about stopping thoughts is a thought itself..go beyond it..rest in the Inner peace.. it is there.." As we reached the station I saw that the instructor was bowing down to her in all respect with tears brimming in his eyes.I was surprised.It was a glimpse of the state in which she resided beyond ego and duality,in jivanmukta.... appearing as normal to any one of us.

This is such a beautiful story Prascina! It is such a blessing to us all, on each of our own paths, to witness and experience teachers such as your own.

Highest regards,
justwannabe2010-07-04 17:18:32 +0000 #11
I can relate to that story prascina,

I have always been one to resist any "organized" spiritual gatherings, I started working on the meaning to surrender and then one day I went to a gathering and in the room of 30+ people I felt as if the whole time the teacher was talking directly to me. When we put the thoughts aside it seems as if we can truly listen.

thanks for sharing prascina

Neil
Hubert2010-07-04 16:24:59 +0000 #12
Duality is what on Shankya philosophy is based on. Because it is descriptive , it is dualistic in it's approach, just as modern scientific thinking is. It must be, so one is able to tell the difference between various levels of existence and expressions of Spirit (God, you name it).

I just recently learned, that this is but one of the three spiritual streams of ancient indian wisdom. The other two are represented by The Vedas, and Yoga, respectively. The Vedas are monistic, and deal with various manifestations of God -they are indeed The Word to use a christian term, Sankhya is dualistic, and describes these manifestations in an analytic manner, and Yoga dals with man and his way to God.

These three streams are presented in a wonderful union in the Bhagavad-Gita of Mahabharata.

This is important to remember. The Vedas present the spiritual world as creation of God, and they are direct revelations through an ancient clairvoyance. This clairvoyance was not conscious, rather it was given as a reminiscent of a an earlier phase in man's evolution (times before the history we know). Most people think that man back than was just like us, because it's physical body apperas to be the same. It was not so. We think that the Vedas were revealed to great sages alone, and it was so to a certain extent. But what made their acception possible was the fact that man back than still had certain clairvoyant faculties making for him obvious the existence of the spiritual. He experienced things not observable through the senses, so when he recieved a revelation, he knew that he recieved a higher vision, a true reality.

With our egos, and faculties limited to the senses today, some of us think back, and say: how foolish were people back than, to believe in devas, gods, spurenatural beings, fairytales. We know there are no such things. We went to the Moon, and searched our Solar system, galaxy, nowhere are there such things. Who says this, misses that these beings were depicted only to keep their memory alive but they are not physical beings, and their reign is supersensible. Their depicted forms should talk to our intuition, inspiration, imagination, and not to our senses.

Others, more spiritually inclined might say: how wonderful it was to have that clairvoyance, that connection to the supersensible, and they might feel sad because we have lost that.

There is no reason to be sad. That clairvoyance was not fully developed. To be more specific, only half the petals of the chakras were "working". That clairvoyance was automatic, not by man's will. In fact, man was different in another important aspect ... he did lack the sense of individuality as we have it today. This is hard to comprehend for us, as we have a strong feeling of individuality, and we put great emphasis on it in today's culture.

Man, back than felt more organic part of the group soul of his nation. He did not have a strong sense of "I am a being", an individual entity". He more like felt that I am part of my family, my ancestors, my nation, shortly, the blood ties were experienced with much greater strenght. Man felt as a finger on a hand, and not a separate individuality.

Today, we cannot fully comprehend Arjuna's anguish. We might say, ok, he had to fight his distant relatives, friends, these things happen. Today we have a strong sense of individuality, and we accept that there might arise situations when brothers are put against each other. Back than, that was a much greater sorrow, as man, Arjuna experienced it like a fight among various parts of the same body; how is than victory possible ?

And here comes the teaching of Krishna, and Yoga. Arjuna must give up his tribal, blood tie related identity, security, and find Himself, the individual, the spirit man, Atman. There is great wisdom hidden in the Bhagavad Gita. Humanity on a large scale had to undergo a similar evolution.

Losing that ancient clairvoyance was necessary to develop a strong sense of ego, individuality. Without this, man could never consciously arise as an independent spiritual being. There were always more developed beings, so this must not be seen as true for everyone, but for the greater majority of humanity.

Why do I tell all this ?

First, to attract attention, that through this process of developing an ego, and becoming reliant solely on our senses, our spiritual heritage suffered the same. It became a religion, and throughout history, whenever a higly evolved individual receieved revelation, and started a new religion (unwillingly), this process has been repeated. These religions, are part of our evolution, and provided relief and shelter for those who were seeking the divine. It is important to realize that there is no "true religion" today. They all suffer from man becoming "materialist" by sole reliance on the senses.

I am not saying we should throw them out ... but you see, in ancient time, man needed guidance, and the priest was an initiate, having direct knowledge of the spiritual world. Today this is not so, everyone with a sound mind will accept this. Today, we have arrived to a point in our spiritual evolution where the option of personally seeking the spiritual is accessible to the greater majority. The XXth century has been that of unprecedented changes.

Man today is able to consciously work on himself, and develop the faculties necessary to experience the spiritual. But we must be aware that the ancient wisdom of India, as it was revealed back in time, was targeted to a different man that we are today. Back than, man, felt that he is belonging to the spiritual world, and was longing to get back there, not realizing that more was prepared for him, a conscious, free journey to that world, what made necessary the development of ego, and for that, the total expulsion form the spiritual realm. Because of this, ancient indian philosophy is often negational, and radical in rejecting the world. Thankfully, The Spirit works today, too, and all the great yogis and teachers I had the fortune to meet or learn from, realized this, and now teach a more individual, Self oriented but not world rejecting approach.

There is a danger, especially for desilusioned people to "go all the way" in following yoga philospohy. I myself have went this path, here on these forums, and noone really could stop me, exactly because the above presented facts are neglected. I was said to be wrong because I am right. (dear Nichole, I still feel Mother-bhava when I think of you )

So, It seems I was not right. Not because what Nichole has said, but because yoga philopsophy can be easily misunderstood or misapplied today. It might become a trap for people who are trying to escape the world.

We do not want to escape the world. We want to make ourselves better, as free man and women, and arise consciously as confident, beatiful, wise beings as it is destined for us to be, finding our place in this great big world, what is far-far more than what we expereince through our senses.

You see, Sri Aurobindo's super-man, or even Nietzsche's übermensch, are not that wrong. Nietzsche was right about saying "God is dead". It was the truth. Man became materialist, a sense driven animal with an ego, and for such a being, God really is dead. It was not his fault to not be able to overcome the nihil he created. He did his job - strange it might seem, according to my teacher, Rudolf Steiner, he was an austere franciscan monk in his earlier life !

The world is not simple. Materialist science would like to believe that the world can be explained and the more simple the theory, the more true it is.

Yes, the world can be explained even to everyday reason - up to a ceirtan extent, but it is far from simple.

The world can be known not by disecting, and analizing it's parts alone, but by their connections. This kind of thinking is the total opposite what science uses today. Connections, relations, between things apparently unrelated ... this is how imagination, inspiration, and intuition works. Thes eare the fields of Higher Manas (not kama manas, what science uses), Buddhi, and Atman, or Spirit Self. This "thinking" is alive. This is what we should learn, a task for many lifetimes, and not a total dissolution in Brahman, non-existence, but slowly learning and aquiring all the brahmic qualities.
Prascina2010-07-04 19:19:04 +0000 #13
Love and surrender to the SELF..pure consciouness.The moment the presence is wavered from its awareness you start to feel the torture, a play of illusions and delusions.
Some verses of bhagawad gita are more interesting as the meaning goes deeper taking different dimensions with the practice..like the one in which it says..detach from all dharmas and surrender to me..as the inner peace became more constant it started meaning..surrender totally unto me and the dharmas will detach itself from you.
Brahmam is what is with the brahmic qualities?So when the dissolution happens isn’t it natural that you acquire those as you are not separate from it?
Hubert2010-07-04 17:12:58 +0000 #14
Quote:

Originally Posted by Prascina



Brahmam is what is with the brahmic qualities?So when the dissolution happens isn’t it natural that you acquire those as you are not separate from it?

Yes, it seems natural. Only that dissolution TO HAPPEN we must work our way through practicing qualities like power of concentration, equanimity, self control/mind control/thought control. Working in order to aquire the "brahmic qualities" is a must and this is exactly what we do through various preparatory practices. (yama, niyama, asana, pranayama, even in first stages of meditation)
Prascina2010-07-04 16:27:29 +0000 #15
To be liberated ..the simplest of yoga practice is to smile from deep within you.In yamas and niyamas the practice like that of non-violence and surrender starts from within you towards yourself.Then the simplest form of asana that is the smile becomes steady and comfortable regulating your breathing in the process of pranayama.
Hubert2010-07-04 23:17:35 +0000 #16
"Quite unattached at heart but for all appearance acting as with attachment, inwardly cool but outwardly full of fervour, act playfully in the world, O Raghava!"

Ramana Maharshi

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